``I don't believe in equality`` - Owen Morgan
I think I've said all I have to say on the Awesome Generation, however, Owen started an msn convo this evening, which I think makes for some rather interesting reading. He brings some good points like mutual equality; authority in the church; the role of church etc, all of which are blogs in themselves.
I don't say anymore than this, but I'd urge you to read this convo. I copied it letter for letter so it's as was so to speak...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Owen Hello Ben
Me heloo
Me Still thare?
Owen Yep
Owen Hello
Owen Sorry was busy
Me Me too (was watching Fawlty towers)
Owen have you thought about what I said at fridays?
Me which particular bit?
Owen Any of it
Me I thought about what you said with regard to `only the people in the church can comment on the church` and I'm afraid i take exception to that. As to the rest much as I was (as I am ever) interested with talking to you, there was a fridays and a jobhunt and about three months or whatever between then and now and I can't remember much more.
Owen that's a shame
Owen you only heard what you didn't agree with
Owen also I didn't say that
Owen Never mind
Me I'm happy to go over it again. I do apologise about forgetting your point though, I honestly appreciate the effort you made to speak with me.
Owen I don't have time to say it again
Owen and it clearly falls on deaf ears. I sincerely tried to share my heart on things and what I have learnt in my limited experience I genuinely believe that i have wisdom i can share that is very much relevant to you. However I'm not sure you want to hear it.
Me I should say of all the people in the rawlsome generation, I think you're probably the person who actually understands where I'm coming from (and of course I don't deny your right to contest it)... Please don't think I've no intention to listen to you, however, I think before fridays isn't the best time to put something in my head as it's pushed out straight away by fridays etc. Perhaps (again, if you have time), you could email your thoughts on the matter.
Me I didn't mean to say rawlsome there btw, Freudian slip :s
Owen I don't have the time -for someone who is so rude about my church or my paster -refering to the rawlsome generation shows a despicable lack of respect for a man of God.
Owen I'm glad that what god was saying through Phil did fill your head then. You know the word of God has the power to change your life if you'll let it.
Owen Ben, i believe that time spent talking to you is probably wasted and I am a little busy. Sorry if that sounds rude it's not it's just honest, you however are precisely that rude. I don't have time to email you I'm afraid I would prefer it if you refrained from commenting on our church until you have the maturity to stand up to criticism and more importantly correction. You lack discipline, Ben.
Owen and your problem is a dangerous one
Owen My thoughts in short
Owen thanks
Owen I pray that you will come to use your powerful brain constructively to serve God's purposes in Norwich
Me Why do you call Tom authority?
Owen I wasn't referring to Tom
Owen You have a problem with authority in general do you not?
Me I wouldn't say that at all
Owen Tom has authority as God's chosen leader of the church
Me Says whom? Under what scripture?
Owen His authority issues from the holy spirit, sent by Jesus the son of God
Owen Throughout the new Testament this is evident
Owen It's a chain of command
Owen Revelation if particularly clear that one is answerable for the church
Me Maybe I'm an emergant, or maybe this is just a mere misunderstanding of symantics, but authority infers there's a God given right for Tom to bear authority over me... Why did Jesus tear down the temple curtain if my relationship with Him wasn't meant to be explicitly personal? Is Jesus not my high priest? Is Tom not more than a pastoral guideship than an authoritative figurehead? I don't think it's an authority problem that says that, I think it's a megalomaniac who says `follow me to Jesus`
Owen Really?
Owen I believe that is what Jesus asks us to say
Owen We are supposed to be cities
Owen lights that shine
Owen That show the way to God
Owen The bible speaks clearly about instruction, correction, admonition, and rebuke
Owen That requires authority invested by God in his leaders (as per Eph 4)
Me Which part? I'll look up
Owen Your opinion is dishonouring
Owen the Bible teaches honour
Me My honour lies with God and his son He sent, not with men
Owen In honouring God you honour those he has placed in your life
Owen you are not an entity and a law unto yourself
Owen Christ speaks and acts through the church
Me And if tom has no `godly` obligation to honour me, does God advocate inequality?
Owen honour is not an enemy of equality
Owen you have misunderstood the terms
Me I understand you're busy, but perhaps you could pin point some scripture and explain them to me...
Owen On what ben?
Owen I'm not sure we read the same Bible
Me `the terms`
Owen honour and equality
Me to whom?
Owen with equality there also exists honour
Owen they are not opposed
Me with equality there exists mutual respect, which i feel is different to honour. And equality has no place for authority.
Me (as a footnote, Christianity gets really rather socialist at parts)
Owen “honour a prophet and you shall receive a prophets reward”
Me Where does the bible say that?
Owen look at what happens when Jesus goes home and he is not honoured too!
Me this is about honouring me who call themselves authority.
Owen Matt 10:41
Me Hang on...
Owen I don't believe in equality
Owen Look at matt 5:12 – some have great rewards in heaven -others have greater? Other have less? -Jesus refers several times to people being greater than others in heaven.
Me Hang on again...
Me I think that (and bear in mind we read different Bibles), is a misrepresentation of scripture... the verse talks about the reward in heaven. Not the stature of its inhabitants. And the verse before, 10:41 talks about discourse and Jesus not coming to bring peace – not about denying authority... which again is different to prophets.
Owen I have to go
Me indeed
Owen tomorrow I am involved in the most significant thing happening in the world
Owen the local church
Owen :)
Me What?
Me !
Owen Eph 1:23 (Msg)
Owen Chapter and verse just how you like it :)
Owen Can't believe you bought me down to your level
Owen Precisely why I must leave
Me Is the local church less significant than the UN, the GA, the global summit, the millions of charity workers every day? I should say that's a show of arrogance
Owen the church is Christ's body !!
Owen what could be more significant!!
Me indeed `I want love more than i want offerings` can't remember the exact translation/verse but Jesus says that?
Owen really?
Owen I don't see how that's significant
Owen church is more than offerings
Me I think the peace of a nation or the ease of suffering is a lot better than the discipleship of the Christians or the limits of a PA deck... that's just my opinion.
Me If the church is any less than an offering to God – it must be built on man's desires
Owen i think you misunderstand the concept of church ben
Me please enlighten me
Owen the bible says not to correct a mocker
Me and i say don't take the bible out of context and be so good as to answer my question
Owen I don't have time
Owen check the context, examine your life, and read psalm 1
Owen Good night
Me Cheers for the talk
Me tek care, dude
Me x
Owen and you
posted by Ben F. Foster Esq. (c) @ 12:36 AM
12 Comments:
At 1:25 PM,
Anonymous said…
``I don't believe in equality`` - Owen Morgan
it was you who said not to use things out of context Ben, check yo self.
At 7:49 AM,
Helsalata said…
I have a multitude or responses to this blog Ben and I will try to convey them as accurately and honestly as I can but forgive me if my use of language fails me.
1. Do you have no compunction about displaying a private conversation in a public arena? I would personally be asking myself whether I felt comfortable about this. Did Owen consent? And how would you feel if someone did the same to you in their blog?
2. Is this bee in your bonnet serving God at all? By displaying this private conversation, are you furthering God's Kingdom?
3. To be able to make the points that both of you needed to make, was MSN the best place for this conversation or did it need to be a face to face?
4. I have previously agreed with the points you have made (in principle) about mega churches- I perhaps need to ask you to consider some other factors that are important here.
a) Why do you have a problem with the word/concept of authority?
b) Why has this become a bee in your bonnet?
c) Why do you need to be right?
d) Where are you with God?
These are not for general consumption (ie you don't have to reply to each of them via your blog) but they are points that spring to mind in reading what you have written. After all a story is never one sided. Explore the other side.
Hope that makes sense...
At 8:56 AM,
Ben F. Foster Esq. (c) said…
I'm not quite sure why this has become a big deal actually. La suggested me takin down this post, but i says to her i says that it's a non-rant.
I put the unedited convo online because it shows proclaimers in a light that's impartial and gives a fair chance to give their two cents... hense not writing another forty blogs on each point raised and not giving a long introduction to the post.
ben
At 9:05 AM,
Ben F. Foster Esq. (c) said…
p.s, re-reading, what the spig is it with me and authority? when the dickens have i ever shown i have an authority problem said ben incedulously?!?
I think, seeing my mum idolise her church leader and seeings La's mum be so submissive that her leader picks her very diet, added onto the scarey brainwashed nature of the GI Awesomeite I find leadership in the church scarey when i don't trust the said leader.
I stand by my theory that Tom has invented the term authority for his own purposes, but I have never had problem being submissive when i know there's a Christian I respect who is more learned and experienced than myself. Also, at work, I've never had any problem with authority, or school (apart from Helen - the old consultant from Norwich Union but seriously: Professor Umbridge incarnate!)
So down with the Ben's Authority problem issue before i choose to wear emo clothes and graffiti bathrooms
Ben
At 11:39 AM,
Mark Tiddy said…
Perhaps displaying a MSN conversation wasn't the worlds best idea however (in response to Helsalatas comment) I don't think you really needed Owens permission, when it comes down to it msn is a casual thing and you don't sign any privacy policy saying you wont save/ publish conversations!
However Ben i think the main point is really, yes there are things about Proclaimers and Awesome which people may question however when it comes down to it you're not attending the church and I think what needs to be your main focus is relationship with God, you have a really good way of writing and I can't help but think that maybe it would be of better use talking about God in an evangelical way rather than discussing a church!
At 12:17 PM,
monty said…
Hi there
I stumbled on this via helsalatas blog, and the convo intrigued me. Personally I dont agree with putting a personal MSN on a blog, its rude, but I can understanding briefly (if maybe out of context) why you have chosen to do it.
I neither know who Tom or Owen is. I neither know you Ben so forgive me. What came across to me, and its my opinion, is that this Owen isn't the most humble of people. He comes across as quite self righteous and aloof. I found him impolite. Whereas I felt you gave some reasonings that see well founded.
To add my comment. In the end there needs to be a structure of authority within a church. Fundamentally this is because a church needs to be led both spiritually, financially and physically. I dont always agree with my pastor in my church - but I respect him and when we disagree, I choose to submit to him. But he is a man enough to listen to my views, make a judgement for the good of not just the kingdom, but of the church's health as well.
I don't believe he has any authority in my spiritual life. He can guide me, suggest, pray and generally mould me, but in terms of spiritual authoroity, we have this over each other via Christ and NOT in my opinion through a leader.
Authority is important - but authority is only given when leadership and the team mutually respect each other.
Sorry, hope that made sense. just my humble opinions....
At 3:28 PM,
monty said…
Also, just re-reading.
Re: Local Church
I don't think local church is the most important thing in the world at all. Local church would mean Christs Body is manifest completley in "local church". Thats simply not true.
The most important thing in the world is how we are letting the holy spirit mold us and guide us - whether thats at work, at school, in the dole office, with my family or with local church.
Thats the most important thing - and collectively that is church. When you say he is arrogrant, I tend to agree.
D
At 11:08 PM,
Ben F. Foster Esq. (c) said…
my my
since when did all these curious indiscresions read a blog relating to roughage?
I should think if Owen took exception to me displaying an msn convo he'd have said by now, the inner party are all privy to my blog. However, as i mentioned, I'm sure Owen has the integrity not to be ashamed of his aligences and I respect that and as such, would have no problem, even encourage an unadulterated conversation we had.
I think Monty sums up my thougts on leadership:
To add my comment. In the end there needs to be a structure of authority within a church. Fundamentally this is because a church needs to be led both spiritually, financially and physically. I dont always agree with my pastor in my church - but I respect him and when we disagree, I choose to submit to him. But he is a man enough to listen to my views, make a judgement for the good of not just the kingdom, but of the church's health as well. I don't believe he has any authority in my spiritual life. He can guide me, suggest, pray and generally mould me, but in terms of spiritual authoroity, we have this over each other via Christ and NOT in my opinion through a leader.
... the thing i picked up on that was `choosing` to submit. firstly, I think one has to choose to submit, otherwise we're pre-determined puppets and leadership would be futile in itself, however, choosing not to submit, I don't think is an issue of `authority problem`. After all, I choose not to submit to Tom
as (in my opinion) his views are misguided. Similarly, he's entitled to not submit to my blogbashing for the same reasons. Furthermore, I think not only should we Praise God we live in a society that advocates such freedom, but also the people who demand to be followed should take stock and wonder why they feel guided to say such a thing unless they believe in Divine Appointment (eg Pope).
Re Matt's comments: I think, that depends on a purely utopian society. However, if no one spoke against the church for its own furtherence, I maintain we'd still be paying for certificates of salvation every time the Vatican was low on money (as happened in the 6/7th centuries). Ulster Unionists may have the wrong approach to tweaking the church to how they feel it should be done, but I can't see any more public or orderly method of such communication other than the written media. (As demonstrated by Martin Luther it could be said).
Finally, Tarkus, Re: you have a really good way of writing and I can't help but think that maybe it would be of better use talking about God in an
evangelical way rather than discussing a church! my old teacher of English would disagree on at least the first count there, however, archived blogs do seem to talk about how God's moved in my life, the places I've sought Him, the times He's led me through etc. Again, as I was saying to Matt, I wish this world was as fluffy and regro-dimensional as Eden however, man has messed it up. That's not something to beat ourselves up over, or to brush under the carpet of amicability, it's something to resolve: primarily in prayer as I pray for Proclaimers and as I fully imagine, Tom and the lads pray for my blog and me.
The point is, an issue isn't reduced because it's not talked about, and not talking about an issue doen't mean there's nothing to talk about.
Ben
At 8:53 AM,
monty said…
Ben
Clearly your not getting along with Proclaimers church and the leadership there.
From what I have seen and read about Owen then I am not surprised.
I have one final comment. Sometimes in life we never can agree with someone and they can never understand our point of view, and them neither ours.
After time, effort, prayer and discussion have been exhausted, the correct christian approach would be to bless them and say I don't agree and move on. Its your life and your walk, and in the end excersising effort in trying to prove someone wrong can be redirected into better and more prosporous things I believe.
At 6:12 AM,
Helsalata said…
Amen to that!
At 9:50 AM,
Anonymous said…
I am unsure of how you feel you can post and justify yourself as a Christian when you are blatently living a life outside the morals of the bible. I cannot therefore sit and believe any of your views on Proclaimers Church or any of the people who attend as you seem to be a very uncreditable person. I believe you need to look at yourself, get some books on how you should live your life as a Christian and conduct your relationships with women. Then other people might listen to your views and take notice.
At 10:12 PM,
Unknown said…
Its funny that people with such strong views dont have the courage to give their name............
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