I think I've said all I have to say on the Awesome Generation, however, Owen started an msn convo this evening, which I think makes for some rather interesting reading. He brings some good points like mutual equality; authority in the church; the role of church etc, all of which are blogs in themselves.
I don't say anymore than this, but I'd urge you to read this convo. I copied it letter for letter so it's as was so to speak...
-------------------------------------------------------------Owen Hello Ben
Me heloo
Me Still thare?
Owen Yep
Owen Hello
Owen Sorry was busy
Me Me too (was watching Fawlty towers)
Owen have you thought about what I said at fridays?
Me which particular bit?
Owen Any of it
Me I thought about what you said with regard to `only the people in the church can comment on the church` and I'm afraid i take exception to that. As to the rest much as I was (as I am ever) interested with talking to you, there was a fridays and a jobhunt and about three months or whatever between then and now and I can't remember much more.
Owen that's a shame
Owen you only heard what you didn't agree with
Owen also I didn't say that
Owen Never mind
Me I'm happy to go over it again. I do apologise about forgetting your point though, I honestly appreciate the effort you made to speak with me.
Owen I don't have time to say it again
Owen and it clearly falls on deaf ears. I sincerely tried to share my heart on things and what I have learnt in my limited experience I genuinely believe that i have wisdom i can share that is very much relevant to you. However I'm not sure you want to hear it.
Me I should say of all the people in the rawlsome generation, I think you're probably the person who actually understands where I'm coming from (and of course I don't deny your right to contest it)... Please don't think I've no intention to listen to you, however, I think before fridays isn't the best time to put something in my head as it's pushed out straight away by fridays etc. Perhaps (again, if you have time), you could email your thoughts on the matter.
Me I didn't mean to say rawlsome there btw, Freudian slip :s
Owen I don't have the time -for someone who is so rude about my church or my paster -refering to the rawlsome generation shows a despicable lack of respect for a man of God.
Owen I'm glad that what god was saying through Phil did fill your head then. You know the word of God has the power to change your life if you'll let it.
Owen Ben, i believe that time spent talking to you is probably wasted and I am a little busy. Sorry if that sounds rude it's not it's just honest, you however are precisely that rude. I don't have time to email you I'm afraid I would prefer it if you refrained from commenting on our church until you have the maturity to stand up to criticism and more importantly correction. You lack discipline, Ben.
Owen and your problem is a dangerous one
Owen My thoughts in short
Owen thanks
Owen I pray that you will come to use your powerful brain constructively to serve God's purposes in Norwich
Me Why do you call Tom authority?
Owen I wasn't referring to Tom
Owen You have a problem with authority in general do you not?
Me I wouldn't say that at all
Owen Tom has authority as God's chosen leader of the church
Me Says whom? Under what scripture?
Owen His authority issues from the holy spirit, sent by Jesus the son of God
Owen Throughout the new Testament this is evident
Owen It's a chain of command
Owen Revelation if particularly clear that one is answerable for the church
Me Maybe I'm an emergant, or maybe this is just a mere misunderstanding of symantics, but authority infers there's a God given right for Tom to bear authority over me... Why did Jesus tear down the temple curtain if my relationship with Him wasn't meant to be explicitly personal? Is Jesus not my high priest? Is Tom not more than a pastoral guideship than an authoritative figurehead? I don't think it's an authority problem that says that, I think it's a megalomaniac who says `follow me to Jesus`
Owen Really?
Owen I believe that is what Jesus asks us to say
Owen We are supposed to be cities
Owen lights that shine
Owen That show the way to God
Owen The bible speaks clearly about instruction, correction, admonition, and rebuke
Owen That requires authority invested by God in his leaders (as per Eph 4)
Me Which part? I'll look up
Owen Your opinion is dishonouring
Owen the Bible teaches honour
Me My honour lies with God and his son He sent, not with men
Owen In honouring God you honour those he has placed in your life
Owen you are not an entity and a law unto yourself
Owen Christ speaks and acts through the church
Me And if tom has no `godly` obligation to honour me, does God advocate inequality?
Owen honour is not an enemy of equality
Owen you have misunderstood the terms
Me I understand you're busy, but perhaps you could pin point some scripture and explain them to me...
Owen On what ben?
Owen I'm not sure we read the same Bible
Me `the terms`
Owen honour and equality
Me to whom?
Owen with equality there also exists honour
Owen they are not opposed
Me with equality there exists mutual respect, which i feel is different to honour. And equality has no place for authority.
Me (as a footnote, Christianity gets really rather socialist at parts)
Owen “honour a prophet and you shall receive a prophets reward”
Me Where does the bible say that?
Owen look at what happens when Jesus goes home and he is not honoured too!
Me this is about honouring me who call themselves authority.
Owen Matt 10:41
Me Hang on...
Owen I don't believe in equality
Owen Look at matt 5:12 – some have great rewards in heaven -others have greater? Other have less? -Jesus refers several times to people being greater than others in heaven.
Me Hang on again...
Me I think that (and bear in mind we read different Bibles), is a misrepresentation of scripture... the verse talks about the reward in heaven. Not the stature of its inhabitants. And the verse before, 10:41 talks about discourse and Jesus not coming to bring peace – not about denying authority... which again is different to prophets.
Owen I have to go
Me indeed
Owen tomorrow I am involved in the most significant thing happening in the world
Owen the local church
Owen :)
Me What?
Me !
Owen Eph 1:23 (Msg)
Owen Chapter and verse just how you like it :)
Owen Can't believe you bought me down to your level
Owen Precisely why I must leave
Me Is the local church less significant than the UN, the GA, the global summit, the millions of charity workers every day? I should say that's a show of arrogance
Owen the church is Christ's body !!
Owen what could be more significant!!
Me indeed `I want love more than i want offerings` can't remember the exact translation/verse but Jesus says that?
Owen really?
Owen I don't see how that's significant
Owen church is more than offerings
Me I think the peace of a nation or the ease of suffering is a lot better than the discipleship of the Christians or the limits of a PA deck... that's just my opinion.
Me If the church is any less than an offering to God – it must be built on man's desires
Owen i think you misunderstand the concept of church ben
Me please enlighten me
Owen the bible says not to correct a mocker
Me and i say don't take the bible out of context and be so good as to answer my question
Owen I don't have time
Owen check the context, examine your life, and read psalm 1
Owen Good night
Me Cheers for the talk
Me tek care, dude
Me x
Owen and you